CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, host Ethan Sands, NBA voter Chris Fedor and columnist Jimmy Watkins dive deep into the end-of-season awards, discussing the MVP race, Rookie of the Year, Most Improved Player, Coach of the Year and Sixth Man of the Year.
More Cavs coverage
Takeaways:
- Chris Fedor has an official NBA voter ballot for end-of-season awards.
- The MVP race is primarily between Nikola Jokic and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, with strong arguments for both.
- Donovan Mitchell’s leadership and sacrifice for the Cavs are highlighted as key factors in his MVP candidacy.
- The Rookie of the Year race is seen as weak, with Stephon Castle as a frontrunner.
- Most Improved Player discussions are complicated by the definition of improvement and player pedigree.
- Kenny Atkinson and J.B. Bickerstaff are the top candidates for Coach of the Year, with Atkinson’s impact on the Cavs being particularly noted.
- The conversation emphasizes the importance of statistical profiles in MVP discussions, but also the value of intangibles.
- The debate around co-MVPs is dismissed by both hosts as impractical.
- The debate for Defensive Player of the Year is highly competitive.
- Lou Dort’s defensive prowess is unmatched this season.
- Evan Mobley is a top contender for Defensive Player of the Year.
- Payton Pritchard’s efficiency makes him a strong candidate for Sixth Man of the Year.
- Malik Beasley is having one of the best shooting seasons in NBA history.
- The Cavs are likely to have two players on the All-NBA teams.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Speaker A: What up, Cavs nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And yes, it is finally time to do the episode that you have all been waiting for. End of season award breakdown. So, of course, we have the man, the myth, the legend, Chris Female with us today. He has an official NBA voter ballot when it comes to end of season awards. And Chris, we’re just going to get into your ballot what you chose, who you chose, what you went with and your decisions and how you thought about that process, because we know you go into the statistical metrics very in depth. We don’t have to get too nerdy. Unless you want to. But Chris, what did you go with from top to bottom? Let’s start with most valuable player, and you can walk us through it in the order that you had it on your ballot. And then me and Jimmy are going to go through our own little fake ballots and we can discuss or even debate depending on which players we have different or if we’re all the same, then we’re all in alignment. Of course that’s going to happen. Chris, take the floor.
Speaker B: So first off, we’re all still waiting for our ballot. Apparently we’re going to get it at midnight and then we have about a day to submit it, actually. But all of us, I’ve had a lot of conversations with a lot of different voters over the last couple of weeks. All of us kind of have our notes on our computer or in a notebook. Some people are more old school. Shout out Joe Varden from the Athletic. Him and I sat down in New York together and we had lunch at a pizza spot, my go to pizza spot in New York in Manhattan, Angelo’s Pizza, which is wonderful. It’s better than the Lakewood Angelos. Now, I grew up on Lakewood Angelos, okay? So these people don’t need to jump down my throat here. I went to St. Ed’s High School, so I spent many lunches at Angelo’s, many dinners at Angelo’s, many pregame meals at Angelo’s before football games right across the street. I love Angelos in Lakewood, but this Angelo’s in Manhattan is some of the best pizza that I’ve ever had in my entire life. So it is the Angelos to me. So Joe and I sat down at the Angelos in Manhattan the day of the Knicks game, and we kind of bounced different ideas off of one another and we kind of threw out different names that maybe he didn’t think of. Or maybe I didn’t think of. And it was really, really good to pick his brain and kind of get a feel for which direction he was going, why he felt some things. So we all have a running list, whether it’s on a computer or an old school notebook, and we’re ready to go for whenever we do get our ballots. It’s probably going to be midnight tonight. It might be 7am tomorrow morning, 8am tomorrow morning. But I have the majority of my stuff, like, already locked in. I think there’s a few more that I’m still internally debating and I’m kind of doing a little bit more research on. But I think MVP is relatively straightforward, guys. I do. I think the top four, in whatever order you’re going to put them in, are going to be the same names. It’s Jokic, it’s Shea, it’s Jason Tatum, it’s Giannis. How do you put them in order matters? And then the fifth spot, I don’t know. That one’s tough. It’s either Steph or LeBron or Tyrese Halliburton or Cade Cunningham. I think those are the main ones for that fifth spot. Donovan, obviously, is right there in that mix. And you just have to determine, okay, what it is that that you think is most important when it comes to voting for this. What do you think is the thing that separates one from another? Because these are great players and they’re all having great seasons and they’re all making a significant impact for their team. It’s mvp. There isn’t really a bad choice here, but I think you’re trying to find the best choice. So for me, my MVP valid is it’s Jokic 1, it’s Shay 2, it’s Jason Tatum 3, it’s Giannis 4, and then I’m going with Donovan at 5.
Speaker A: The number 5 spot is different from what you had said on a previous podcast. You had admittedly said that you had Tyrese Halliburton as your fifth spot. What made you change your mind?
Speaker B: I don’t know if anything, like, it was always close between Donovan and Tyrese. Tyrese, Steph, Tyrese LeBron, Tyrese, Cade. I guess you could probably toss Ant in there if you wanted to. So it was always close and I felt like 5 was essentially a coin flip. And it’s just like, what did you think mattered most? And at the end of the day, like, I determined that Donovan deserved to be rewarded for making a level of sacrifice for the betterment of his team that I’m not sure that Every other player in that same situation would do. His leadership, his willingness to empower Evan Mobley, his willingness to sacrifice shots, touches usage rate, his willingness to elevate Darius Garland in late game situations. I mean, I think it’s hard with Donovan because he doesn’t have the statistical profile of some of these other guys. He doesn’t. But there are intangible things that I don’t know how you quantify, I don’t know how you measure that. I think Donovan, I think it separates Donovan from some of these other guys that we’re talking about. And for this one situation, I said damn the statistical profile. And I just went with the value that I think he brings to this Cavs organization. And when you’re talking about value and you’re talking about most valuable and you’re Talking about a 64 win basketball team that is number one in the Eastern Conference that had five months of brilliance and five months of dominance and Donovan being at the center of that, they aren’t this team without Donovan. They aren’t the impact that he has, it trickles throughout this entire organization. And to me there is significant value attached to that.
Speaker A: So the one time you don’t look at analytics, I like it. I like it. All right, Jimmy, your turn. Go ahead and let us hear it. About the Nicole Yokoshay Gyotas Alexander debate.
Speaker C: I’m a little surprised Chris didn’t pick sga, but as I was going through the exercise myself, some of these Jokic numbers are just insane, man. Like I want to. I think their on off difference with him is like 22.4.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker C: That’s not real. That’s not real. It doesn’t make any sense. The offense is dead in the water without them. Now we’ve, we’ve had this on the conversation on the pot a little bit before. It’s like part of that is because their bench is so bad that they just fired the GM with three games left in the season. So I don’t know what to do with that. And we’re, we’re doing a little bit of punishing Shea for having a better team around him here. But I, the closer we get, the more I, the more I think I don’t fault anyone either way. But I did go Shea both because he’s led the best team in the NBA. The Thunder are a different team without him out there. I think there are seven points worse on offense when he’s not out there. Like if they. To a certain extent, they’re off. They do have talent around him and they don’t fall apart when he steps off the court because their defense is so darn good, but their offense starts to look a little ugly when they don’t have him out there. Also, I think Shave is one of like seven or eight guys ever to put up 2400 points in a season and he’s done it the most efficient ever. And particularly the kind of game he plays where it’s a lot of mid range that’s super duper impressive to me. He is having one of the best, having one of the best point guard, shooting guard, whatever you want to call him, lead guard seasons of all time. And I, I tend to look at these ballots a little bit more as like I think they should reflect what the story of the season was. And to me, the Thunder being the best team in the NBA, their best player in a close race, a very close race, gets the nod over Jokic, who it should be noted, does deserve a ton of credit for getting the Nuggets to 50 wins in the west while apparently their coach and GM hated each other so much that everyone just thought they should be fired.
Speaker B: So this isn’t even about Shay. To me this is just about the brilliance of Jokic. The things that we have seen from Jokic this year we have never seen. We have never seen, not even from LeBron. I mean we’re talking about a 30 point triple double for an average also while shooting close to 60% from the field and better than 40% from three point range. So the statistical profile is just obnoxiously great. And then beyond that, Jimmy, you hit on it. The impact that he has for Denver is so significant. They are a lottery team without him. They cannot function on the offensive end without him. And yeah, part of that is about the roster that they built, it not being good enough. Them letting KCP go to Orlando, Jamal Murray and some of the injuries that he was dealing with. But I just can’t ignore when you have the impact metrics that Jokic has and you have the statistical profile, I just can’t ignore that. And it’s no offense to Shay. Shay’s been great. He beats Jokic and you know, win shares, defensive win shares, he’s a better defensive player statistically. Win shares per 48. But offensive box plus minus value over replacement player box plus minus estimated real plus minus. And like the things that, that Shay has the advantage of when it comes to statistical arguments, they’re almost so negligible. They’re very, very close. Like in win shares, Shea’s at 16.7 Jokic is at 16.4. Like, that is barely any kind of difference. And he’s at 16.4 on a team that didn’t win 60 plus games. So that just shows you his value. It just shows you his nightly impacts. And then I just got to the point where I said, how, how do I see a guy do this throughout the course of the season and then look back in five to 10 years and then history tells me I didn’t vote for that for mvp. I wasn’t going to be that guy. Like, I think I would regret five to 10 years from now, I think I would regret it more if I didn’t vote for Jokic than if I didn’t vote for Shea. And again, this is no offense to Shay, but I have seen people do what he does. It happens every year almost. Maybe not to the same level, maybe not to the same winning level, but from a statistical standpoint, there are lots of guys that do that over the course of history. As we move forward into history, lots of guys are going to continue to do that. What Jokic did this year, a 30 point triple double on average. Nah, I don’t think we’re going to see that very much.
Speaker A: So just to be devil’s advocate here, as I do, there have been conversations and obviously I do not think that it’s actually logical or will happen, but what would you guys say to a co MVP for the first time in NBA history?
Speaker C: Nope.
Speaker B: No balls.
Speaker C: No, we’ve had, We’ve had closer races than this. We’ve had closer races than this. It’s. I don’t fault anyone for voting either way, but no, we’re picking one and.
Speaker B: Just have a set of balls. Like that’s what it comes down to. No sitting on the fence. And the other thing is, like, it’s hard. I mean, it’s going to be hard to come up with CO MVPs because, like, the way that it’s set up is like all this point system thing and you have to put 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 in a specific order. And it would take a lot for all of those numbers with 100 voters to have that come out to an even number. Like I do think Jokic, Shay. I’m not going to say every single one because I’m not going to get in the head of every single voter. Because, you know, as LeBron once said, when you open it up to the public, you’re going to have goofy votes. Now he was talking about Donald Trump at that point in time. He wasn’t talking about The Voice, he wasn’t talking about American Idol, he was talking about Donald Trump. But like that’s for me, the majority of these ballots are going to have one of Jokic or Shea. One, two. So I guess like it’s more realistic that they come close together in terms of the total number at the very end of this thing. But I wouldn’t be okay with CO MVPs.
Speaker C: I had Donovan 5th MVP as well. Kind of the, kind of the Intangibles award, kind of the. I just don’t like the warriors weren’t good enough for the entire season for Steph to be in that spot. As good as his numbers are, LeBron has worn a lot of different hats this year. But I just think that frankly when Anthony Davis was there, Anthony Davis was the more impactful player. And now that Luke is there, I think he’s the more impactful player. No disrespect to LeBron, he’s still awesome, but he’s 40. Who else we talking about? Tyres Halberton has a lower usage rate than Ty Jerome, which obviously Ty Jerome has a much different role than Tyrese Halliburton is. But Tyres Halliburton has the third, third highest usage rate on his own team. That’s just weird to me when we’re talking, we’re talking mvp. I know he does a lot of, I know he does a lot of great things to connect the Pacers offense and his shooting gravity does a lot to open them up. He’s one of the best passers in the NBA. We don’t need a rehash our Tyres Albert discussion, but I just didn’t like all the other fifth options out there. So I think Donovan deserves to be recognized.
Speaker A: Just to go based on. Because I think it’s only fair for me also to go based on what I had on my list and my notes app. I had Nikola Jokic as my MVP as well. I think like Chris was mentioning, it’s very hard to go against a guy who is historically doing something that is very hard to picture other people doing. And also to think about a player that has been the best player in the league for so long, continuing to have that kind of success when other teams are like, yeah, we know we have to play for Jokic when we go play Denver and yet you still can’t do it. Right. That to me is a biggest thing. Also the field goal percentage is absurd for somebody with that usage rate, with that kind of success, all these things. The other thing that I’m just going to throw out Because I do not want to have an entire MVP conversation. We’re already almost 20 minutes in. I think it’s going to be a very hard conversation for a lot of people that are going to be on national television or widespreading networks when it comes to where Jokic ranks if he does win another mvp, because that will be his fourth MVP in his tenure in his career. Right? So that’s joining LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Abdul Jabbar, like the kind of players that we only think about in NBA legacy history. So I think this is a conversation that we could have a different day, especially if they win a championship, whatever that happens. But that’s just something that was on the front of my mind.
Speaker B: Well, let me just say this. If there’s somebody who belongs in that conversation, it’s Jokic. It is the level of greatness, the level of consistency, the level of night to night impact, the level of difference that he makes for his team, being a heliocentric force on the offensive end of the floor at that position, while at the same time, you know, doing all of these different things that he’s required to do on the defensive end of the floor as well. And we could sit here and we can argue that he doesn’t do them at a high enough level, but the responsibility that he has at both ends of the floor for the Nuggets, just to be competent for them to be a playoff level team is immense. So if there is somebody that I think history will say deserved to be in that cluster, in that fraternity, I think Jokic will.
Speaker C: I think durability real quick, too. Never played fewer than 69 games. Given his. Given the position he plays, what’s asked of him, all the kind of deep playoff runs he’s been on, that’s pretty impressive in its own right.
Speaker A: So I want to move on to the next two categories that have no Cleveland Cavaliers in them, and that is Rookie of the Year and most improved for Chris. I’m a. I’m gonna go backwards this time. I’m going to say my rookie of the year and then we’ll go through. My rookie of the year will be Stefan Castle from the San Antonio Spurs. Jimmy and Chris, where are you guys falling in this category?
Speaker B: I have Castle as well. I just think it’s more by default. This is a bad rookie class. This. This is a rookie class where guys, you know, they started coming on more toward the end of the season, but it’s Castle by default. I think Reese’s Shay is certainly in that conversation. For Atlanta, but there was nobody that really, like, stood out to me as head and shoulders above everybody else. So I just kind of went with the statistical profile of Stefan Castle.
Speaker C: Yeah, Castle. I think the other guys have, like, half cases.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker C: Zachary Risache has a nice second half case. Thought Jalen Wells had a first half case when he was a contributing member of the the Memphis Grizzlies before the Memphis Grizzlies were lit ablaze. Jared McCain before he got hurt. Maybe he runs away with this award the way he was looking for the Sixers, but it’s. It’s Castle, and I don’t even know that we need to spend a lot of time on it.
Speaker B: Yeah, I went Castle number one, I went Wells number two, and I went Recessey number three. Or at least I’m going to when I get my official ballot.
Speaker A: Yeah, Jimmy, as you said, I did not plan to spend a whole lot of time on that section. That’s why I’m trying to kind of breeze through these next two. The next one is Most Improved, and I have said this on this podcast, and I’m going to stand on this. I do not think that if you are a number one overall pick, you should be even eligible to. To be in this award for Most Improved. You had the standing of being one of the top players when you got drafted that high. So that’s why I am not picking Cade Cunningham for this award. I would have to go with Dyson Daniels for Most Improved because I am not going to give him a different award that we’re going to get to later on.
Speaker B: So that’s the thing. And I was having this conversation with a couple of different people in the last week, week and a half. It is totally fine for me. If you, as a voter, are going to say exactly what you just said right there, Ethan. You’re going to say, there’s a pedigree, there’s a top five pick thing, where there’s a natural progression, where there’s just the natural evolution of a specific player. And if you’re somebody who has that argument and you say, I am not voting for that guy, that is my standard of voting. That is a stipulation that I have. And if you do that next year, the year after, the year after, the year after, and you’re consistent with it, totally fine. Because I think there are a lot of people that feel that same kind of way. But the thing that you can’t do is hold it against Cade this year and then give it to somebody else with that same kind of pedigree next year or the year after or two years down the road. If that’s your case, then that’s your case. I do want to say that I don’t know that a Cavs player is completely out of this mix. In fact, I know multiple people that are kicking around the idea of putting Evan Mobley in their top three because of the leap that he has made offensively. And he has more baskets that are unassisted this year. So it shows he’s not as reliant on his teammates. He has made tremendous strides as a three point shooter. He is handling the ball better. He is operating in inverted pick and rolls. He is getting rebounds and initiating offense. So if you’re looking for general improvement, there are, there are places that Evan has improved and you can point to all of those. And I just did. Now, again, if you’re somebody that says top five pick, you’re out of the mix. No Evan Mobley. But not everybody sees it that way. So I do know some voters are kicking around the idea of whether or not Evan deserves to be in the top three. I talked to Evan about it briefly following their game against the New York Knicks. It didn’t seem like he was all that interested in winning that award. Let me just say, kind of like understands the whole why is Cade in the conversation? Why am I in the conversation? We were both top three picks. Doesn’t really make a lot of sense. So to me, I look at Norman Powell, I look at Dyson Daniels, but I think this is one that I’m still debating because I just don’t know. I don’t know how to vote for this award, and I’ve never known how to vote for this award. But the three that I’m really debating are Norman Powell, Dyson Daniels and Christian Brown of the Denver Nuggets. Because for Norm to do what he’s doing now at his age, the level of improvement that he’s made to become a borderline All Star this year, to be such a key piece of a Los Angeles team that a lot of people thought was going to win 30 to 35 games, that’s big time. I think there might be an argument for Avika Zubots too, actually, for Most Improved, if we’re being totally fair about it. And then Dyson Daniels, like, his numbers are up across the board, but then you have to ask yourself, is that about opportunity? Is that about playing time increase, or has he actually gotten better somewhere? And I don’t know how to answer that question. Christian Brown has actually gotten Better places. Right. He’s more reliable on the offensive end. He’s more of a three level scorer. He’s a more reliable three point shooter.
Speaker C: He’s a.
Speaker B: And he’s become a better defender and I think he’s become a better leader. So stepping into that starting lineup like that’s a significant leap I think that, that he has made. So again this is one that I still have some internal debate on and I don’t know exactly the best way to go with this one.
Speaker C: This award sucks. That’s what I’ll say. We, we don’t know how to define it. We keep giving it to. Eight of the last 10 winners of this award have been lottery picks. I know about that a couple weeks ago. It’s become the fulfill your potential award, not the most improved player award. Even Christian Brown, guys like Chris, they’re basically two winners of this award. Basically recent lottery pick who has fulfilled his potential or in Cade Cunningham’s case, gotten a roster put around him that can allow him to fulfill him potential. And you still have to do it. You still have to do it. I don’t think it’s fair to just say that Cade’s improvement is solely about him having better spacing around him. Although it has helped but. Or you have your even like a guy like Christian Brown, like he wasn’t a starter last year. Yeah, now he’s a starter. Maybe that has something to do with it. A role change, more confidence, all that sort of thing plays into the role. I would throw a wild card guy out here who’s not going to win, but who I think should be. I think a guy like Austin Reaves from the Lakers. His job has not really changed all that much. The world around him has changed a bunch. I mean he’s playing with Luka and LeBron now instead of Anthony Davis and LeBron. His usage rate has gone up by about three points. So that’s a significant jump. But his minutes are about the same. He’s only taken like two more shots a game and he’s just doing more with his opportunities. He’s become a more efficient three point shooter. He’s really, he’s a really good creator. He’s mature. This is a guy who came out of nowhere. Originally I think we were getting into the season, I would have put him into the like good sixth man spot starter kind of category. And now like, I wouldn’t be surprised if Austin Reeves one day makes an all star team. Partially because of the way he’s playing, partially because I think he’s Gonna have an increased visibility playing next to Luca. That Lakers sheen is going to be on him a little bit but he has taken a massive leap. Your Dyson Daniels again, he’s playing 11 more minutes per game. He’s the former eighth overall pick in the draft who is now in like his third or fourth year. This is just what happens to dudes who come into the league when they’re 19 years old and then they play like three years. They get better because they, they mature, they find their place in the league. Now what he’s doing on the defensive end, three steals a game. That’s incredible. Deserves to be recognized in some way, shape or form. The fact that he’s averaging like 9 more points per game and has improved as a shooter, that. That’s worth noting as well. But I just feel like that’s. You’re a vote for Dyson. A vote for anyone who’s actually going to win this award is a vote for the way we’ve been doing most improved for the last however long, which is increased role or fulfill your potential. A vote for Austin Reeves is. Or Norman Powell. I like the Norman Powell example as well. Although taking Paul George out of the equation there, you can argue that cleared some path for him too. I like, I like that kind of most improved better than I like your Dyson Daniels Cape Cunninghams. And actually from an Evan Mobley. I’m not like a, you know, dismiss it on its face if you were drafted, how you can’t do it because I think Evan has taken massive strides this year. Context matters. But I like to, I’d like to think a little bit more outside the box on this one.
Speaker B: But here’s the other hard thing too because like I don’t think you as a voter can get into a dangerous situation of just assuming that every young top five draft pick is, is going to become Cade Cunningham or Evan Mobley. You know what I’m saying? Like some of these guys don’t become that. Some of these guys are top five picks and they never live up to their potential. So like I can’t just assume that, that everybody is going to become or take the kind of leap that Cade has taken or Evan has taken because it doesn’t happen with everybody. Youth is not a prerequisite for improvement. You know what I mean? So it’s like yes it does happen and yes it has happened in the past. But am I supposed to assume that Osar Thompson, just because he was a top five pick is going to become a multi time all star or like an MVP candidate someday. Am I supposed to just assume that Alex Sar is going to become, you know, Cade Cunningham level in a couple of years? Like, just because it’s happened in the past with some of these top five picks, it can’t be assumed that it’s always going to happen. And that’s the thing where I hesitate with the whole Cade Cunningham thing because, like, the leap that he has made is pretty significant. Like, this is a guy who has gotten himself into the MVP conversation. Like, that’s a pretty big. That, that’s improvement. That’s significant improvement over last year. And is that level of improvement? Is that worth rewarding again? I don’t, I don’t know how to vote on this award. I always have a hard time with it. So I think, I think this one, I think this one needs more parameters for, for what it should be all about than what it actually has at this point. I totally understand ambiguity and I totally understand how that creates debate. But. But I think a lot of voters are in the same situation as I am and they’re like, how am I supposed to vote for this thing? Like, what is the best approach with this thing?
Speaker A: So let me be clear, and I know Chris has specifically said top five pick. I want to be clear on my take. I do not think you could be the number one overall pick and win this award. I think that comes with a different kind of like just a status.
Speaker C: If Anthony Bennett had revived his career, he would have deserved this award. I’m just telling you. I’m just telling.
Speaker B: I was gonna say Markel Fultz would disagree with that.
Speaker C: I think in Cade’s case, we kind of all thought he would be an All Star relatively early on in his career. Lo and behold, in his fourth season, he has become an All Star with the fine. The Pistons have finally put a competent roster around him. They’ve gotten a good coach who knows how to change the culture, and Gabe Cunningham’s an All Star.
Speaker A: Moving on. Coach of the Year. I think it’s a two man race and I think it’s Kenny Atkinson and Jamie Bickerstaff. And based on this is where it gets hard, right? Because based on what Kenny has done to take a good team to a great team. Regular season. These are regular season awards. I think that’s harder than taking a team that was 14 wins to where they are now is a huge jump. I think that’s the argument that you would have to make if you’re going to give Coach of the year to J.D. rickerstaff and to Be very fair. I would not be mad at you for doing so. But I have to think of what Kenny Atkinson was able to do with the same roster basically from last year and elevating them from a good team to a great team and a caliber team that is ready to run for a championship. While Jay Rigorstaff throughout the season, multiple different times was saying we’re still figuring out, we’re still trying to figure out what kind of team we are. And I think it was a surprise not only to him, but also to this, to the team how quickly they made that jump. Jimmy, I think Chris is having some technical issues. Let’s go into you real quick when it comes to who you think for coach of the year.
Speaker C: Okay. So first I’d like to acknowledge that Ime Udoka will not crack many first or second spots on on ballots here, but man, he’s doing a great job in Houston. I know that it helps to have a couple veterans and Fred Van Bleed and Dylan books Dylan Brooks around, but that is mostly an extremely young team.
Speaker B: Yep.
Speaker C: Without a divine defined superstar. Albert Shengum was their only all star and they are second in the west in one of the toughest years that the Western Conference has ever seen. They are one of the best defenses in the NBA with their defensive anchor being a ground bound, maybe not the fleetest of footed center in Sengun. He’s a great offensive player and I think he’s a smart team defender who’s engaged and tries hard. But like we ain’t talking about Evan Mobley and Jaren Jackson anchoring that defense. Okay, so he may has built a strong defensive culture. I think he kind of has pieces of the JB and the Kenny Case because over the last two years he’s done the JB thing of installing a healthy defensive culture and teaching young guys how to win and buy into to what he teaches. He’s also done the Kenny thing of building on what the Rockets did last year and helping them making that jump into, I mean on paper contention, their second seed. They have to be taken seriously. They’re not. I don’t think they’re actual contenders. So I just want to say that I think it’s a two and a half person race. I would not fault people for putting Ime Udoka second on their ballot because I think he’s done a really good job. Even if he needs to free Reed shepherd and let him play a little bit more.
Speaker B: And shoot, you want to hear something.
Speaker C: That’S easier between Kenny and jb. I think the players we Were just talking about most improved. Sometimes I think people who are voting for Kate Cunningham would say that his case is he’s making the hardest leap in the league, which is to go from pretty good to really good or even good to great. And that’s what Kenny’s done with the Cavs. The Cavs were. The Cavs were hitting their hearts, hitting their heads pretty hard on a defined ceiling the last couple of years. Kenny is absolutely blown open the expectations on this, on this franchise. And it just so happens that he has done it with the same roster that JB Fickerstaff had last season. It’s unavoidable. It’s unavoidable. I know, I know. That’s not the conversation for this year. I think JB’s done an awesome job with the Pistons. Again, I will say, I think putting shooting around Cade Cunningham has contributed to that in a significant way. I think veteran putting veteran leadership around a team of young guys has helped JB in doing his job. I think he would tell you that in a significant way. But at the end of the day, Kenny Atkinson took JB Bickerstaff’s 50ish win team, turned him into a 64 win team. And I don’t think we can ignore that when we are directly comparing them for Coach of the year. That’s what I’ll say.
Speaker B: Hold on. There is a piece that was missing last year. We have to acknowledge that. A significant Tiger room. Yeah. I mean, he might win six man of the Year. Like that’s a big deal. That’s a big deal.
Speaker C: That’s fair. Evan Mobley wasn’t doing this. Evan Moby is a Kenny Atkinson massive coaching success. And that’s.
Speaker A: That’s.
Speaker C: He’s the. I think we all agree Evan Modley’s arrow is telling us where the Cavs arrow is pointing.
Speaker A: Chris, short and sweet. Well, I don’t know if you can do the short and sweet JD Bickerstaff or Kenny Atkinson or as Jimmy was mentioned, IME Udoka for Coach of the Year.
Speaker B: Do you want to hear something crazy?
Speaker A: You’re going with the OKC Thunder coach.
Speaker B: As the year was going on and I was like putting my list together just so that I could be prepared for when I got my ballot. Do you know who was on my Coach of the Year rundown? Michael Malone.
Speaker A: No clue. All right.
Speaker B: Seriously. He was like, they lost kcp. Aaron Gordon spent time on the sidelines. Jamal Murray was sometimes healthy, sometimes not. Wasn’t playing all that well at the beginning of the year. Like I Thought they were overachieving based on what they had. Yeah, a big part of that was Jokic, and that’s why he’s my mvp. But I also thought Michael Malone was doing a pretty good job keeping everything together in Denver. Apparently, you know, there are other things that were going on with the Nuggets, so I guess I can take him out of the mix completely. No, I think the top three. I think the top three are Kenny, JB and ime. And if you go jb, I would not fault you as a voter. I would not. And if you go Kenny Atkinson, I would not fault you as a voter. I feel like I have not an obligation, but because I’ve seen everything up close and personal throughout the course of this year, like, I have a better understanding, I think, of the coaching touch that Kenny has brought to this team and why that has been a huge part of their ascension to the top of the Eastern Conference. But I think if you’re somebody who’s looking at it from afar, you’re like, wait a minute, hold on. Like, they might have the sixth man of the year. They had three all stars. They’re going to have two guys on the all NBA teams. They might have a guy finish top five in mvp. So, like, coaching really, like, reward that guy with all that talent, with all that depth. But again, I think the touch and the influence that he has had on the Cavs becoming the team that they are is. Is something that if you’re up close and personal and you’re around this team on a daily basis, you see it and you feel it. The other thing is, I am of the belief, and I’ve been of this belief for a very, very long time that, that in the NBA it is easier. Not it’s easy, but it’s easier to go from bad to good than it is to go from good to great. That takes the right kind of coach, that takes the right kind of system, that takes the right kind of philosophy and everything about the Cavs, the way that they play, the way that they talk, the level of belief that they have that ties back to Kenny Atkinson.
Speaker A: All right, we got two categories left. The next one. And these are probably the two most discuss categories that we’ve had all year long, especially as of late. The next one, Defensive player of the year. And I don’t know about you, I’m going with Evan Mobley. Chris, where’s your head?
Speaker B: All over the place. This is another one that, like, I’m doing a ton of research still on. I’ve talked to so many different coaches and so many different players over the last week, week and a half. And I will say this, I will say this. There are four names when having these conversations, and I’ve tried to have conversations with players that are not of the team where a guy could get that vote. I’m saying, like, if I’m going to have a conversation with George Niang about defensive player of the year, just a general conversation with him, he’s going to say Dyson Daniels, he’s going to say his guy. You know what I mean? So, like, I’ve tried to make it be players that I’ve interacted with in the past that I have a good working relationship with that aren’t going to be Esme and their teammate is not up for this. I will say the four names that come up right away are Evan Mobley, Lou Dort, Dyson Daniels. Well, I guess they’re five. Draymond Green and Amen Thompson. I’m still trying to narrow it between those five because those are my five. Two. Like, I think there’s a legitimate case for each one of those guys. Lou Dord is the best defender on the best defense that we’ve seen in a decade, and he takes the toughest challenges and he holds everybody that he plays against. Anthony Edwards, Steph Curry, Donovan Mitchell, all those guys below their season average every time they play against the Thunder. And that’s Dort. That’s the influence that he has. That’s the responsibility that he has. That’s how bothersome he is to the opponent. Amen. Thompson is a big, big reason why Houston has the defensive rating that it has, the way that he can guard multiple positions, the way that he can disrupt by getting into the passing lanes. But it becomes a little bit complicated because Dillon Brooks kind of has a big responsibility there too, when it comes to Houston and what they are defensively and Draymond’s. Draymond’s numbers, not the steals, not the blocks per game, but the deeper numbers, those are really, really good. They’re better than anybody else’s that is in this mix. And you’re now making an argument for the defensive player of the year. Being on a team that you think has a legitimate chance in the playoffs, that becomes different than just like the. The 10th spot in the play in tournament. That is just going to be one and done.
Speaker C: I voted for Ludor and I voted for Lou Dort because Evan Mobile is second for me. I think we need to have a conversation with our listeners and maybe even some of our fellow Cleveland media brethren, this Evan Mobley case, as I love, love Evan Moby as his defensive player. He’s basically perfect teams. He’s, he’s. No one has defended more, more isolations than him in the league. Teams try him. It doesn’t work. He’s an amazing rim protector. He, we, we’ve talked about it. He’s gotten to the last level of defensive superpower where guys go and try him at the rim. And he’s standing there. Because he’s standing there. He, they, they keep, they keep on dribbling and they move on. That’s amazing. Lou Dort’s on the best defense. Not just, I mean, however, you. I don’t know how you want to define this, but The Thunder are 2.5 points per 100% for 100 possessions, better than the second best defense in the NBA. That is the largest gap between number one and number two since at least 2000. That’s this entry. That’s how good the Thunder defense is. So I’m, I think Lou Dort’s the most impressive defensive player on that team. He takes the hardest assignment every day, every night on that, on the perimeter for the best defense that we’ve seen in quite some time. That’s why I’m voting for Lou Dort. Why I’m not voting for Evan Mobley is because Chris Status. Chris had a stat the other day that the Cavs are, I believe, 15th in defense since January 1st, which includes a lot of noise about the cab. You know, this, this last month and a half or so the Cavs have made, have not been as engaged as they usually are because frankly, they haven’t had a lot to play for. And we saw a little bit of that dip in, I believe, January as well. I’m not going to fault them for that. I don’t think it’s a bit. I’m not going to fault them for that as I evaluate them as a playoff contender. I think their defense is fine. I think they’re going to be an elite defense when it’s time to be an elite defense. But we’re talking about a regular season award where from start to finish, the Thunder have Never ranked lower than 4, fifth in defensive rating in a month. The Cavs have, as Chris mentioned earlier in the week, they’ve ranked 15th in defensive rating since January and they will finish the season, I believe, eighth in defensive rating. Would you like to know the last time a defensive player of the year came from a team that finished outside the top five in defensive rating? The answer is 2007, when Marcus Camby won it, basically when we picked the guy who had the most blocks or the most deals. Marcus can be had 3.3 blocks back that year. He’s a great defensive player. But The Nuggets were 12th in defense. That also encompasses the time basically, since we’ve started caring about defensive rating. It’s always been a top five defense. The Cavs are not a top five defense this year. Not only that, but for a large chunk of the season, they have been an average ish defense. Again, I will say, I don’t think that’s who they really are. I don’t think that’s Evan Mobley’s fault. By the way, ironically, all the Cavs who have put microphones in front of Evan Mobley’s face saying, you need to. You need to argue, argue for yourself more defensive player. The Draymond Green’s going on podcast. We need to give you the platform. The best way to give Evan Mobley defensive player of the Year if you’re his teammate, would have been to play better defense.
Speaker A: That simple.
Speaker C: That’s what I think. And I think that, in fact, I know that a lot of voters, A lot of voters use historical precedent as a tool when they’re voting here. I don’t think I’m gonna be the only person who has uncovered this little trend. So I’m sorry. We have the best defender on one of the best defenses ever versus a really, really, really, really good defender, potentially more impactful defender in Evan Moly because he. Of the position that he plays on a defense that has come and gone. And I’m going to go with the. With the great defensive player on a historical defense than that before I go with a great defensive player on a defense that has been kind of a seesaw.
Speaker B: So who’s your vote for, Lodore? I mean, I get it. I don’t hate it even. You basically scoffed when I brought up Draymond. And I feel like you’ve been inflicted by the disease of the Cavs locker room, and the Cavs locker room has just decided that Draymond is not worthy of this award, and they don’t want to hear anything about Draymond and his. His chances of winning it because I think. I think people inside the Cavs locker room and inside the Cavs organization siege Raymond as a legitimate threat to Evan Mobley winning defensive player of the year. And. And I think Cavs nation, the fan base, sees Draymond as a legitimate threat to Evan Mobley winning defensive player of the year. So that pulling up all these different things about how much Draymond falls and then these clips at end of games in these situations where he’s getting beat off the dribble and giving up buckets and stuff like that. And it’s like you can do that with everybody if you wanted to. If you wanted to and you wanted to be fair about it, you know what you could do, guys? You could take some clips of DeMar DeRozan going right at Evan Mobley in switches or James Harden going right at Evan Mobley in switches or Kawhi Leonard going right at. Everybody has those kinds of quote unquote low lights. If you wanted to take quote unquote low lights, you could do that with Amend Thompson, you could do that with Ludor. Because here’s the thing. This is the NBA. An offense is going to win. Great offense is going to be great defense. It’s just going to happen. So you can play great defense and. And then that offensive player makes a bucket against you and you’re the closest defender to that. So it seems like Cavs Nation is just grabbing all these clips of Draymond where he’s getting beat off the dribble or he’s giving up buckets in late game situations. That’s fine. Whatever. All I’m going to say is this. All I’m going to say is this. Defensive box plus minus. Okay? Defensive estimated real plus minus, defensive win shares. Like all these different things that a lot of voters, including myself, use. It’s not the end all be all like one stat. A group of stats does not tell the entire story. It tells a story, but if you’re somebody that deems those things important and meaningful in this discussion, Evan Mobley does not lead Draymond Green in any of them. Any of them. I think maybe one actually, and is by 0.2 points. But aside from that, like the analytical profile of Draymond Green as a defender and the impact that he makes, it is. There it is. And it doesn’t mean that I’m voting for Draymond, okay. But it means to summarily dismiss him is outlandish and like to hold it against him that Fanduel two months ago had him at plus 5,000 or something like that for defensive player of the year. And you don’t like the fact that he became the front runner according to Fanduel and some of these other bookies. Like, to hold that against Draymond Green is ridiculous. I don’t think he has the best case. Okay. I don’t I think Evan Mobley still has the best case, but Draymond Green certainly has a case, and it is a strong one, especially when you put the stats right next to Evan Mobley, the deeper analytical stats. When you put those against Evan Mobley, when you put those against Amend Thompson, when you put those against Lou Dort, when you. When you put those against anybody that is in this conversation now for defensive player of the year, Draymond absolutely has a case.
Speaker C: When Wemby got hurt, when we left the vacuum behind, Wemby got hurt. Okay, we did. The award became open, and initially, Evan was the favorite, and Draymond was a long shot because the warriors were bad at the beginning of the season, and the warriors got good. So Draymond, by the way, as the warriors got good, Draymond became more engaged. He was like, oh, oh, crap, we have a chance to do something. I need to remind people that I’m one of the greatest defensive players of this generation. Which he is. Which he is. He will be a Hall of Famer on his defense alone and his playmaking, but mostly his defense. And you know what happens to odds when they don’t really know when to assign them? They shift quickly. They shift quickly. A lot of people. A lot of people never open the DraftKings. A lot of people who are making this gambling case have never opened the DraftKings app in their life before. Okay, when we have a situation like we had with Victor Wembanyama, a runaway for defensive. You could have cast the ballot in December. Could have cast the ballot in December. Lock it up. He was going to win it, and then he gets hurt and he’s not eligible for it anymore. By the way, if Victor wembanyama had played 65 games. Fascinating. Fascinating what we do with him in this conversation. But when you have a situation where there’s a runaway favorite and he leaves, someone has to be the favorite. In the beginning, it was Evan Mobley and Jaren Jackson Jr. And Draymond was an afterthought. Then we played some basketball. The award race got real, and the odds shifted because that’s what happens.
Speaker A: And I think that’s. That’s where my eyes were at the very beginning. And obviously, I don’t know if Scott scoffed is the right turn. I just knew you were going to go there, and I was waiting to see what. I wasn’t scoffing at you having Draymond in your ballot because it makes sense analytically, and you made a great case for him. It was more so me seeing and Obviously, I’m not into betting at all, but seeing, like, there was a 0% chance for him throughout the entire season up until the month of March, that is a jarring change. It’s not necessarily what it has to do with Draymond. It’s just what has to do with looking at the statistical changes that were made around him. So, sure, Draymond and the warriors played better in March. They got Jimmy Butler at the trade deadline. We all know how that changed their outlook on the season. They have not won in the play in. Right. So I think it’ll be interesting to.
Speaker C: See they’re in the varsity conference. So they were in the East. They would be comfortably a top four seed. Neither here nor there.
Speaker A: Sure, Jimmy, but they’re not. So. So we’re not talking about how. How. Yeah, I. I get it. But, like, I. I mean, sure. Anyway, I. I still think Evan Mobley is the favorite or should be the defensive player of the year.
Speaker C: Can I say something else, too, about Wemby as it pertains to this? I think this is interesting one. I think I. Actually, the Draymond thing is as much from Cavs fans, it is from Caps players. I think Draymond is generally very unlikable as a player and for fans. I think people who are not on Draymond’s team don’t like him. I think people who are not warriors fans don’t like him. I also think that part of the Evan Mobley super push here is because people recognize around the league, they. Draymond recognizes this, too. Wemby is gonna win, like, 10 of these in a row. So, like, this is like, one of the very few open years where it’s like, okay, other great defensive players, throw your hat in the ring. This might be your best chance. Because when the alien come. Alien comes back healthy, let’s all cross our fingers for that, because he’s awesome. He’s gonna rip off a crazy run of these.
Speaker B: I. I honestly think, Jimmy, I think that’s why Evan wants it so bad, because I think he feels like it’s his best shot. I also think Evan wants it really, really bad because he feels like he was robbed of rookie of the year. And if he doesn’t get defensive player of the year, he is going to make a case, and he’s going to have a compelling enough case that he was robbed of two awards that he probably should have, or at least he has a strong case to have at this point in time. All I’m saying, again, is that there. There isn’t there isn’t as much statistical evidence in support of Evan Mobley as this organization and this fan base wants you to believe that there is. There just isn’t. And it doesn’t mean that I’m not voting for him. And it doesn’t mean that I don’t respect him as a defender. And it doesn’t mean that I don’t see the impact that he has. And it doesn’t mean that I don’t see the contested shots. It doesn’t mean that I don’t see the field goal percentage at the rim for guys that go at him versus the rest of the NBA and like all these other things. But there are, there are things that, that teams around the NBA, they use and they value that, that are supposed to measure impact, defensive impact specifically. And he is not better than Draymond Green or Amen Thompson or even Avika Zubots in any of these things, with the exception of one, and is by point two. And that that’s not a big difference. He does have the steals. He does have the blocks. He does have the contested shots. He does have the fact that he doesn’t fight foul a lot. He does have the fact that maybe there is a looming shadow that he brings to a game that makes opponents hesitate. That’s something that I’m considering. Like, is the offensive game plan different because of the sheer presence of Evan Mobley? I think the answer is yes. Can the Cavs function the way that they want to at a high enough level on the defensive end of the floor because of the presence and the switchability and the versatility of Evan? Yes, that is a feather in his cap as well. But the statistical profile, I keep repeating it. The statistical profile does not make this the runaway that people want it to be for Evan. It is going to be a very, very, very close race. And that’s because the clear front runner is no longer a possibility for this award. And I think Dyson Daniels is going to get a lot of first place votes by the way. Like, I don’t think you can just summarily dismiss all of the steals, all of the deflections, the fact that he does guard the best player on the other team and you can’t completely hold it against him that the rest of Atlanta’s defense is not good enough and therefore the team as a whole is not good enough defensively. Like he made them more respectable as a defense because of all the great things that he does. So people are going to vote for him first too. Just be ready for it.
Speaker A: Moving on to the last category, which I thought this one was going to be the biggest debate, but clearly we’ve had debates throughout six man of the year. Jimmy, let’s start with you. Who do you have as your sixth man of the year?
Speaker C: Yeah, for me, it’s Peyton Pritchard for Boston because, I mean, like, think about the season Ty Jerome is having. We’ve talked about all the crazy effective field goal percentage numbers that, that tie. He’s gonna be one of 11 guys six, five or shorter to shoot 60 or better for effective field goal percentage while scoring at least 12 points a game or something like that. Pin Pritchard’s on that list too. And fact, Payton Pritchard has a higher effective field goal percentage. He is a more efficient scorer, and he’s doing it with better volume. So Payton Pritchard versus Ty Jerome. Payton Pritchard wins. DeAndre Hunter scores more, or at least he did he more. It’s closer than since. Since he’s been with the Cavs, but for the season, more so with the Hawks than with the Cavs. He’s a higher volume score, but Peyton Pritchard has a higher usage rate. And this one, this. This number just pissed me off because DeAndre Hunter’s six eight. They have essentially the same rebounds for 36 minutes. So see you later. DeAndre Hunter. You need to exercise Payton Pritchard. On no planet, on no planet should Peyton Pritchard be rebounding on the same level as DeAndre Hunter. Be tall. Be tall, Willie. So for me, it actually comes down to stain.
Speaker B: I love your disdain for tall guys who just don’t rebound at all, bro.
Speaker C: Been been no taller than 510 my whole life. I would dre the things I would dream of doing if I was 6, 8. The list would start with grabbing more than 5 rebounds per 36 minutes. Get out of here. Get out of here. That actually came down to Malik Beasley and Payne Pritchard. For me, I think Luke Beasley has a really, really, really, really strong case. Yeah, I think Peyton Pritchard gets. There’s a little bit of a winning bias here for me. But like Malik Beasley also having one of like the ten best volume three point shooting seasons ever. Like the list of guys who have shot 40% from three on nine attempts per game. It’s Steph like five times. Dame wants Clay once and then Malik Beasley. I guess it’s Steph more than five times. Jesus. It’s steps seven times. Steph is ridiculous. Yeah, Steph is ridiculous. So Malik Beasley is legitimately. Having one of the best shooting seasons of all time. He is also second on the Pistons and usage rate, particularly since, I mean that’s, that’s not saying much. It’s Cade Cunningham and then a bunch of role player usage rates out there. But they depend on him for offense in a way that a lot of these guys, these teams don’t depend on their sixth men for offense. But I just couldn’t get there because Peyton pritchards, Ty Jerome’s DeAndre Hunters of the world, have a little bit more of an on ball creation role. I think I’m still going to put Malik, Malik Beasley second to recognize the season that he’s had. But It’s Peyton Pritchard one, Malik Beasley two. And we’re. I mean, that’s tied. Jerome, DeAndre Hunter thing depends on your preference, but I want DeAndre Hunter.
Speaker B: All right. So I have a question for you, Jimmy, since you brought up Peyton Pritchard. I think the primary debate when it comes to Peyton Pritchard and Ty Jerome is this. Do you believe that if Ty were to get the same minutes that Pritchard has gotten for Boston that he would be able to have the same statistical profile as Peyton Pritchard?
Speaker C: I think the efficiency would dip. I think the efficiency would dip. It certainly wouldn’t go up. That’s what I’ll say. Maybe he could maintain it, but Peyton Richard is having a more efficient season on a higher volume and scoring a little bit more than Ty. He’s not the playmaker that Ty is.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker C: I’ll give you that. They, I think. I think they actually are pretty similar in assists per game, which given their minutes gap, Ty’s got an edge there. But I also think Ty’s just a little bit more. More crafty. Like the Cavs will legitimately just run it through him even if he is sharing the court with like a Darius or Donovan. Whereas Peyton always had the. Has the benefit of Jalen. Not always. But there are some lineups where he’s not with Jalen and Jace or Jason out there. But most of the time he’s out there with one of those guys and they’re clearly, the number one offensive option. The casual literally just ride Ty Jerome for stretches. But I think Ty Jerome’s best case is the scoring and the efficiency. Payton Pritchard does that better. And if they were to have the same minutes, I. It’s not, it’s not a normal thing for your usage minutes. Whatever opportunities to go up in your efficiency to maintain or increase, that’s What I would say.
Speaker B: But his scoring would go up and his number of made threes would go up. Yeah, right.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker B: His assists would go up. His rebounds would probably go up. His steals may go up as well. I just wonder like, if the view of Ty would be a little bit different if he wasn’t averaging just 19 minutes a game. I wonder if.
Speaker C: I think that’s true. He’s also been. He’s also been sharing this role for the whole year. I mean, in the beginning of the year, remember we were having a Caris Lavert early sixth man of the year conversation. They’re like coast six men. And again, I mean, that’s not entirely fair. Like, you have another good bench guy next to you. So what? But like Ty Drum’s teammates also on the ballot, so.
Speaker B: Yeah, I know that’s.
Speaker C: I think that’s going to factor in the conversation here.
Speaker B: I actually wonder if DeAndre Hunter, I wonder if his chances decreased of winning six man of the year the minute that he got traded from Atlanta and he came to Cleveland.
Speaker C: Yes, for sure. For sure. But I don’t think he would trade that for any.
Speaker B: I mean, like, I agree with that.
Speaker C: Would you? Six man. Six man in the play in. Or maybe, you know, maybe the Hawks make it out of the play and if the entre. Hunter stays there.
Speaker B: Come on.
Speaker C: I don’t know.
Speaker B: You can do it, Hawks.
Speaker C: There you go.
Speaker B: 7C.
Speaker C: There you go.
Speaker B: But let’s go.
Speaker C: No, you’re super. Right. I think DeAndre has a much better shot of winning this award if he’s.
Speaker B: If he stays good.
Speaker C: By the way, so does Ty Jerome.
Speaker A: Ironically, that just about sums all of it up. Right? Going through each and every one of them. And Chris, I know you don’t have your doubt.
Speaker C: Who’s your sixth man? Ethan, we need your sixth man.
Speaker A: I was stuck between Malik Beasley and Peyton Pritchard as well. Obviously, Ty Jerome was also in my consideration. But the. The biggest thing for me, me and the argument that I would make based on what Chris was asking you, Jimmy, is that when you divvy up votes between six men. Chris, we’ve had this conversation on multiple different occasions. Like, if you have two different players from the same team, your odds of winning the award, they go away. Basically. Right. Because you have split votes. And DeAndre Hunter and Ty Drum were just so good this year that I feel like both of them were going to be in the conversation. So I think Peyton and Malik are two different guys. And Malik just. I mean, you talk about getting help and being the help that Cade Cunningham needed. He is the help that he needed. Obviously having that off the bench is even more efficient, especially when you talk about Cade going to the bench in certain spurs as well. So those, those will be my two. And then Ty Jerome and DeAndre Hunter is basically a toss up.
Speaker B: It is a distinct advantage that the Cavs have over the Celtics. They can go 10, 11 deep. The Celtics go about eight, nine, eight and a half, basically. I would say. Unless you consider Baylor Shireman or J.D. davison, who they just gave like a new standard contract to. Yes, I mean, that is an advantage that the Cavs are going to have going into a potential series against Boston. They are that much deeper. No doubt about it. By the way, I think in those games.
Speaker C: Disrespect young. That’s young Joe Ingles. Do not disrespect young Joe Ingles.
Speaker B: In one of those games, Peyton Pritchard had a double double. In the other game, he was like inching toward a triple double and I think they sat him in the entire fourth quarter because obviously they had double bigger things at stake. So I don’t think their, their lack of offense, to me anyway, in those last couple of games were, were about him so much as it was about Drew Peterson, Baylor Shireman, J.D. davidson and some of these other guys from the main White Claws that he was playing alongside. Like, oh my God, I can’t believe Craig Porter Jr. Didn’t look better alongside Luke Travers and some of the other guys that he was playing with on Fan Appreciation Day. It’s the same kind of thing.
Speaker C: I do think that Drew Peterson and J.D. davison were not carrying their, carrying their weight when helping out Peyton Pritchard and Baylor Scheireman. I think that.
Speaker B: Okay, Baylor Shireman, that’s hilarious. The other thing is all NBA teams, there are three of them and I believe that the Cavs are going to get. They’re going to get two reps on. I don’t know if it’s going to be first and second. I don’t know if it’s going to be second and third, but Evan Mobley and Donovan Mitchell, I think are going to make all NBA.
Speaker A: All righty. Well, with that being said, we love to end the podcast with takes and obviously you got one there from Chris Fedor. So with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Top High Cat. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly hey Chris questions and get all insights directly to your phone. To do so, sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out.
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